There is strong evidence that Wagner was Jewish, too.
But being anti-Zionist doesn’t make Ahmadinejad anti-Semitic. And as for Holocaust denial, when he looks at the age-old Jews of Iran, he simply doesn’t see, as he does when he looks at the Israelis, the European Jews killed by Hitler. He may be as wrong in that as in his historical opinions. But that is the way it is.
After all, when Israel’s own Ashkenazi elite, or those Ashkenazim who adhere to Avigdor Lieberman, look at Jews from Iran, or Yemen, or Ethiopia, or various other places, they don’t really see their own people, either. And they are not above acting accordingly.
If you define Jewishness as about the Holocaust, then not only are you letting Hitler win, but you are excluding all Jews not of European origin or extraction, whose formative historical experiences are quite different.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
I don't really know what your main point is ... but here's my reply to some of your individual statements: He is both anti-semitic and anti-Zionist for separate reasons. Denying that the Holocaust occured is anti-semitic in that he is saying Jews fabricated the story. He is anti-Zionist in that he wants to obliterate Israel. And, yes, it is perfectly logical to define the Holocaust in terms of Jewish identity - that's exactly what the Nazi's did. If you were Jewish (going back several generations to a single ancestor), you were eligible for transport and death. Plain and simple. I also dispute your assertion about Ashkenazis looking down upon Jews from other parts - that's old history. Jews from all over the world were re-united with their brethen and worked to build the new state. Also, one need only look at the current state of affairs to repudiate your statements: high rate of marriage between the two groups in recent generations, and the great influx of Ethiopian Jews into Israel about 15 yrs ago was a loving act sponsored by the Israeli govt and supported by the citizenry. I suggest you either find new sources of information or visit Israel, and see for yourself.
ReplyDelete"it is perfectly logical to define the Holocaust in terms of Jewish identity - that's exactly what the Nazi's did"
ReplyDeleteWhy let them win? And they didn't mean Jews like the ones in Iran, or Yemen, or Ethiopia, or a host of other places. They were barely, if at all, aware of such people, and certainly wouldn't have picked them out as Jewish in a line-up.
"high rate of marriage between the two groups in recent generations"
Not without controversy.
"the great influx of Ethiopian Jews into Israel about 15 yrs ago was a loving act"
They haven't been terribly loved since they got there.
Ahmadinejad simply doesn't see any connection between Iranian Jews and Israel. But then, nor do the people with the economic, the social, the cultural, and still most of the political power in Israel. They despise non-Ashkenazi Jews, just as they despise religious Ashkenazim. And Avigdor Lieberman's voters view both categories a lot more harshly than that.
What about all the non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust?
ReplyDeleteOr all the non-Jewish Israelis? I don't just mean Arabs.
ReplyDeleteThere are Russians who refuse to eat kosher food, and who insist on taking their IDF oaths on the New Testament alone (nothing to do with Russian Orthodoxy, which keeps Old Testament figures as Saints, and venerates icons of them accordingly). There are Russian Nazis.
There are East Africans who have constructed a religion based on the Old Testament brought by Christian missionaries. There are Peruvian Indians. Anyone. Absolutely anyone at all, so long as they are not Arabs.
Even the Pashtun are being whispered about as a "Lost Tribe". They are certainly not Arabs, so watch that space.
And Persians aren't Arabs, either...
I just found this post. And I have to reply to this.
ReplyDeleteAshkenazi Jews look down on Persian/Arab Jews and don't associate with them?
Ahmadinejad sees the Jews in his country as different from those in Israel?
Persian Jews don't relate themselves with Ashkenazi Jews?
I'm Persian and Jewish. I can tell you that we see ourselves first and formost as Jewish before alligning ourselves with the Iranian government. There are deep ties between the persian and israeli jewish communities. While communication between Israel and Persian Jews is very controlled, in cases of medical emergencies, Persian Jews are sometimes able to gain access to Israel to receive medical attention, because the Iranian government prefers NOT to use their funds on their OWN population of Jews. Jews from all over the world see eachother as being the same. Fine, granted maybe from different origins (Sephardic, ashkenazi, Mizrahi...), but in the end all Jewish.
As for the israeli government/israel being Ashkenazi Jews??
Please explain this. Israel is nearly 50% percent ashkenazi (european) and 50% of sepharadic/mizrahi origin. In the early days of Israel, the politicians were primarily european jews, as jews coming from islamic countries were not as interested in politics as much as say practical jobs like "shoe-making" or plastic manufacturing...that sort of stuff. However today, the government has large numbers of european and persian/arab/north african jews...(moshe katzav, recent president was persian)
Likewise, many of my relatives living in israel are now mixed in with the general Israeli Jewish population, no longer JUST persian/sepharadic but also russian, german, polish etc... So your assertion that they don't consider eachother to be greatly connected is absurd
Also, you brought up Avigdor Liberman? Yes, he is an ultra right wing politician, from the IB party which tend to be against the creation of an independent palestine, asserting that the west bank is the historical Jewish land of Judea and Samaria. The fact that this party is against palestinians, does not mean that ISRAEL or even the party itself is against persian/arab jews.
Also, hitler and the nazis "didn't mean Jews like the ones in Iran, or Yemen, or Ethiopia, or a host of other places," is that why as hitler moved into northern africa, jews in tunisia, algeria and libya were sent to concentration and extermination camps in Europe? Is that why had the british not stopped the Nazis in Egypt, there were plans to send the Egyptian jews to european gas chambers. How come anticipating Britain's defeat in egypt, the Jews in palestine at the time developed a defense and battle plan to fight the Nazis as they moved up into palestine.
I respect that you clearly do know about current Israeli politics, however clarify certain assertions you are making with this information. The arab-israeli conflict does not mean there ALSO exists a conflict between Arab Jews and Israeli Jews. And Israel is not a predominantly Ashkenazi Jewish country, it has a very well mixed and diversified jewish population. Like any country however, it takes a generation or two before new populations become accustomed enough with each-others different ethnic cultures, so clearly when the russian jews came for example, or ethiopian jews came, there were some issues as the groups became a part of Israeli culture, just as it took some time for Ashkenazi and Sephardic culture to develop into one single Israeli culture after 1948 when the two groups met in large numbers. As for the ethiopian jews, because they practiced a form of judaism (biblical judaism), so different from that of most jews (rabbinical judaism), and even totally different holidays, their adoption into israeli culture has been taking much longer than other groups who share common jewish beliefs, practices, prayers, culture, holidays etc
"And Persians aren't Arabs, either..."
ReplyDeleteI wanted to add that the difference between persians and arabs are much more defined in the non-Jewish communities. As for Jews from countries like Iran, Iraq, Syria, and other arab countries, they are culturally much more similar (being defined more so as Mizrahi jews as a whole, not Arab or Persian)
actually the original poster is spot-on. all this talk about "egyptian gas chambers" or whatever is nonsensical and legendary. and this idea, that "nazis" barely recognize the mizrachi jewry (as well as sephardic! take note), is very relevant to grasp the broader nature of the so-called 'antisemitism'.
ReplyDeletei would add, from experience in Spain, that traditional catholic peoples dont conceive of Jews in the same racialist way either; the spanish experience is entirely limited to Sephardic, so Yiddish is something no one there ever thought about. Catholics from the Mediterranean tend to see 'jewishness' as a kind of political/religious sect; hence the idea that one can 'convert', meaning change status. notice that medieval pictures of Jews often dont seem to show any racial distinction, and there is no text i ever saw that claim Jews looked different than the surrounding population.
everyone has there own version, and its all based on some kind of confusion. oy veh... what people miss is that in the aggregate, 'jewish' is at least 10% of the last say 1500 years of history; now mix that in by however many degrees and obviously 1/3, or 1/2, of any "caucasian" country must be relatively "jewish". certainly Spain for example showed a communal census about 800 years ago, of 25% the population! where have all these people gone?? they are right here, we are them they are us and all these stories are just bullshit. nobody does the math...