So, a Fatah state in the West Bank, probably coming to include the East Bank, with the Hashemites simply told to pack their bags and go back to Saudi Arabia. A Hamas state in the Gaza Strip. And, as set out by the devoted Zionist Peter Hitchens here, a state in the middle in which the most popular name for new baby boys is now Muhammad, and in which there is now a Russian-language television station for the ever-growing number of devourers of pork products, many of whom insist on taking their Israeli soldiers’ oaths on the New Testament alone, and some of whom have been found to be distributing anti-Semitic literature in Russian.
These Russians are the beneficiaries of the Law of Return, not least because Israeli Jews, other than ultra-Orthodox who are either fully anti-Zionist or at least deeply unhappy about the State of Israel that exists, exhibit that unmistakable societal death wish which is a birth rate well below replacement level (and still falling).
Hitchens pleads for justice for the non-Jewish Arab fifth (and growing) of the Israeli population, and of course he is right. Israel should seize this opportunity, not only to present her non-Jewish Arabs (more than half of Israeli Jews being Arabs) as the best-off in the Middle East, but to make them enjoy, and make the world know that they enjoy, the same standard of living as the rest of her citizenry.
But put together the little Muhammads, the sausage-munching Russian Christians, the non-Jewish Arab birth rate, the ultra-Orthodox Jewish birth rate, the contrastingly low and declining birth rate among other Israeli Jews, and the fact that Israel’s international credibility now requires that she deliver on her much-vaunted claim that her Gentile citizens are equal.
All in all, in 50 or even 30 years time, we will all marvel that there was ever an attempt to re-create some romanticised version of Wilhelmine or Weimar Germany in the Levant, and the magazines that come with the Saturday or Sunday newspapers will occasionally feature articles about the tiny outposts of those aged souls still trying to live the dream.
But, my Zionist interlocutors, the dream is over. Give it up.
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David,
ReplyDeleteNot to put too big a question mark on your theory, but the Jewish TFR fertility rate in Israel is 2.7, which, so far as I know, is above the replacement rate and, more than that, higher than in any European country.
You have a penchant for fact free views.
Neal, you are counting in the ultra-Orthodox, many of whom are anti-Zionist, and none of whom has any time for Israel as she actaully exists, even to the point of having their political parties secure the exemption of their young men from military service, just as if they were Arabs!
ReplyDeleteEven then, the single most popular boys' name is now Muhammad. And then there the Russians...
Very soon, the people living within Israel's pre-1967 borders will be, in no particular order, Christian and Muslim Arabs, not very Jewish (if not actively anti-Semitic) Russians, ultra-Orthodox Jews, and a tiny handful of overwhelmingly elderly Zionists. The first three groups will continue to grow, and the fourth will simply die out. This is already happening.
Give up on Zionism: of its own volition, it has become a lost cause. If they themseles can't be bothered, then why should you?
David,
ReplyDeleteMy recollection is that the founders of Israel were not exactly religious. Many were devoutly atheistic. So, the fact that Israel may have a slightly less religious or a slightly more religious bent seems a rather trivial point, all things considered.
Moreover, the boundaries of Israel have yet to be finalized. And, given how things are with the Arab Muslim group, it remains to be seen whether they will have a long-term connection with Israel or whether Israel and its neighbors will follow in the footsteps of Greece and Turkey, not to mention Pakistan and India. I have no idea.
What I do not understand is your hostility to Israel. Jews were never treated as equals in Christian Europe or Muslim lands. In varying degrees, both Christians and Muslims treated Jews like dirt. Christians may have been the more despicable at times but, it was a fairly close call, over all. So, why should not Jews break out on their own?
Jews have not done things uniquely terrible that they are not deserving of their own land. And, having obtained their own land, I see no reason to re-cast the die.
You, for whatever reason, perhaps prejudice, perhaps religious upbringing, perhaps ignorance, think Israel troubling, claiming that Jews are not a real people, that Zionism is dying a bogus assertion (opinion polling shows the opposite). Further, Jews, Jew haters and pretty much everyone else has spoken of Jews as a distinct people for as millennial.
And, even if that were not the case, what is wrong with a group of people binding themselves by a common cause to form a nation, as has occurred countless other times in history? Why should Jews be denied what other people claim?
My point here is that I find it difficult to believe that reason, rather than prejudice, plays the central role in your thinking on this topic. Here is a suggestion for you. All over the world, the only basis for countries to exist is that they exist and have not been overthrown. Justification never plays much of a role. And, when it does, those, apart from the contestants, are not often siding for the existence of a country based on reason. Usually interest or prejudice is involved.
No, it's a vital point: you are right that Zionism was founded by atheists. The ultra-Orthodox have never ahd any time for it. Some groups of them express asort of sympathy for the egneral idea, but many are at the opposite end of the spectrum, and none has any time for Israel as she actually exists. I repeat the point about the hugely telling exemption of ultra-Orthodox Jews from military service. Yet without them, just what Jewish birth rate would there be in Israel?
ReplyDeleteSo most Jews in Israel either never did believe in Zionism, or else they have given it up, if not rhetorically (so what?), then certainly in the way that matters, by simply refusing to have anything approaching enough children compared to the non-Jewish Arabs, compared to the not very Jewish Russians (to put it mildly), and compared to the not very Zionist ultra-Orthodox (to put it very mildly indeed).
If you object to this, then take it up with the Israeli Zionists. While you still can, of course: while there still are any.
I see that there is still no answer (since there cannot be one - it's a fact) to the fact that the most popular name for newborn boys within Israel's pre-1967 borders is now Muhammad. Nor to the fact that some Russians are now insisting on taking their IDF oath on the New Testament ALONE. Nor to the question as to who might, in principle, be evicted to make room for a "returning" Jew: the Christian Arab Supreme Court judge? Or the Muslim Arab Government Minister?
Either of these evictions is obviously inconceivable. So the Law of Return, the essence of Zionism, is now a dead letter. Which means that Zionism itself is dead.
And the Zionists, have only themselves to blame. They have brought this on themselves. But now it is done, and it cannot be undone. All that remains is to wait for the last Zionist in Israel to die of old age, well before 2050.
If the Zionists anywhere else really cared that much about the cause, then they would move to Israel. I bet they won't. So they clearly don't. But, again, that is nobody else's fault.
David,
ReplyDeleteYou are way out in front of any evidence. The law of return is not the essence of Zionism. That is in your head.
It was hoped by some Zionists that all Jews would want to live in Israel. That notion faded long ago, with two centers of modern Judaism forming, the US and Israel.
The more pressing question is whether a home for Jews will remain in Europe. With all the bigots in Europe - on all sides of the political divide but all united in their hatred of Jews and Israel -, I would not bet on that. So, Israel stands to gain much population growth.
If all stays as it now is, Jews will, in due course, likely move to Israel. Europeans are fools, siding with the forces of barbarism - all for money. fools!!!
And where in Israel are these Jews to live? Who, exactly, is to be evicted in order to make room for them? The Christian Arab Supreme Court judge? Or the Muslim Arab Government Minister?
ReplyDeleteDavid,
ReplyDeleteThe City of New York has more people than does Israel proper, with over 7 million people in the city alone. Metropolitan New York has 15 million people. So, your assumption that there is not room for more people in Israel is believed by the obvious, that there is no space issue.
There are places with far higher population density than metropolitan New York. Were all the world's Jews to live in Israel, they could live comfortably, at least so far as space is concerned.