Saturday, 12 January 2013

Eurorealism, Indeed

Michael Heseltine's is the authentic voice of the least Eurosceptical of the three parties.
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11 comments:

  1. Anonymous12 January 2013 at 19:46

    This is just fantasy, Lindsay.

    How on Earth is Heseltine the "authentic voice" of the Tories, when he's hated by his party, and the Tories have more MP's who oppose his view on the EU, than Labour or the Lib Dems have?

    Take a straw poll on the EU, of Tory activists and MP's, and Labour/Lib Dem activists and MP's.

    The results show, every time, that the Tories are by far the most eurosceptic of all parties.

    Cameron's upcoming referendum promise is basically a cynical attempt to buy off the huge opposition to the EU in his party.

    If Cameron hadn't imposed a three-line whip on his party last year, far more than 91 of his MP's would have voted for that in/out referendum.

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  2. David Lindsay12 January 2013 at 19:54

    Straw polls? You really imagine that that is how these things work? Grow up. If you can.

    Heseltine is for all practical purposes a member of this Government, complete with a desk in his old Department at which he presents himself on most working days. Can anything remotely similar be said of, say, John Redwood?

    There were demonstrably fewer Eurosceptical Tory MPs than there were Lib Dems MPs as soon as they were invited to vote on a practical measure.

    And this very afternoon, up-and-coming Conservative MPs were on Radio Four to talk about "the silent majority" within the Conservative Party that thinks that Michael Heseltine is just super.

    The Big Two parties are back where they were 20 years ago, with the Labour sceptics not quite at the very top but in close contact with it and with sympathisers very highly-placed, and with the Tory sceptics cast into outer darkness by Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine.

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  3. Anonymous12 January 2013 at 20:51

    "Can anything similar be said of, say John Redwood"

    You really want to get into this ridiculous debate?

    Name me one Labour Shadow Cabinet Minister, who has ever proposed leaving the EU.

    Name me one poll that shows Labour voters oppose the EU, in as great numbers as Conservative voters.

    What "practical measure" are you referring to-a cut in the EU budget that had no effect whatsoever on our relationship with it?

    All polls show (as you'd expect)that more Tory MP'S oppose the EU, than MP's from any other party.

    Because more Tory voters oppose the EU than voters for any other party.

    There isn't any grassroots movement for a Eurosceptic Labour.

    Labour's voters rather like the EU.

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  4. David Lindsay12 January 2013 at 21:02

    Two short planks.

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  5. Bob12 January 2013 at 21:11

    He knows you are right, David. Or he knows nowt except that he knows nowt and he hates himself for it. One or the other.

    It will be so funny when the Cameron speech, more than a year in the writing, is finally delivered. If you think the likes of Anon. are hysterical now, you have seen nothing like their frothing at the mouth when that dashes their every fantasy right as Ed announces that an In/Out referendum will be in the 2015 manifesto.

    Tomorrow's Com Res poll, since Anon. likes that kind of thing so much, for next year's European elections gives Labour 35%, UKIP 23%, Conservative 22%, Liberal Democrat 8% (Green 5%, SNP 4%, BNP 2% so not enough for any seats, Plaid Cymru 1%).

    UKIP and the Tories statistically tied and Labour 12 or 13% ahead of them for the Euros.

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  6. Anonymous12 January 2013 at 21:20

    Bob.

    You don't even understand anything I've written. I wrote Cameron's pledge will be a "cynical attempt to buy off" his own party.Did you read that?

    That means I don't hold out any hope, whatsoever, that his promise will be anything other than a fudge.

    My point was different. I was arguing that Cameron is the only leader of the three parties who NEEDS to buy off his own euosceptic MP's-because the other two parties don't have enough Euosceptic MP's or voters to matter.

    Oh, and as for Miliband's referendum. You need to grow up and learn how the real world works.

    The EU would love A Labour referendum-because Miliband would be campaigning for us to stay in the EU, as would Clegg and Cameron, so there'd be nobody to put the case for withdrawal, and consequently, we'd lose the referendum.

    The BBC don't even need to pretend to be impartial when all three party leaders hold the same position on the subject.

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  7. David Lindsay12 January 2013 at 21:31

    Cameron needs to buy off his Eurosceptical MPs (if he does - I'll come back to that) whereas Miliband does not, because Cameron is not remotely of their mind and will not have them anywhere near him, whereas Miliband broadly is, and is surrounded by people who are very strongly so.

    Cameron has in fact ruled out a referendum over, and over, and over again. He did it again only last Sunday on Andrew Marr's programme, live on television.

    Moreover, there just are not very many Eurosceptics on his parliamentary benches. Whereas one third of the Parliamentary Labour Party voted for it to be chaired by the outright withdrawal advocate John Cryer, and whereas every Labour MP without exception voted for a real terms cut in the budget contribution, the latter division proved that Tory Eurosceptics are less numerous than Lib Dem MPs.

    Cameron would have no need to buy them off even if he were remotely minded to do so, which he is not. There are fewer of them than there are of the Lib Dems. That is now an established fact.

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  8. Anonymous12 January 2013 at 22:55

    This made me laugh out loud.

    Your evidence that there some Eurosceptic Labour MP's is that.... they voted for a eurosceptic Party chairman.. but not a euroscpetic party leader!!

    And...that they opportunistically voted for a budget cut. Hang on, arent these the same Labour MP's who voted for an INCREASE in the EU budget, twice, when they were in power??


    "There are fewer of them than there are of the Lib Dems"

    Your a fantasist.

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  9. David Lindsay13 January 2013 at 19:25

    There has been enormous turnover of Labour MPs since the last Parliament. The present PLP is a different animal.

    The Labour Leader is a lot more Eurosceptical than the Conservative one. Who stood for Leader as exactly what he has turned out to have been, across the full range of issues. Let no one claim to have been deceived.

    And the Division List of the House of Common speaks for itself.

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  10. Anonymous13 January 2013 at 22:01

    This "enormous turnover" was a secret infiltration of eurosceptics into Labour-really? Haha. Enjoy the fantasy.

    Cameron did NOT stand for leader as what he's turned out to be.

    He vowed a referendum on Lisbon, the abolition of the Human Rights Act and withdrawal from the EPP.

    The lobby division over a cut vs a freeze that makes no difference to the reality of our membership,(and won't even make any difference to the budget, which isn't decided here) tells us zero. Sweet f.a.

    When they had a chance to vote for an in/out referendum, Labour and the Lib Dems showed themselves to be the traitors they are.

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  11. David Lindsay13 January 2013 at 22:57

    They are largely a "classic Labour" lot, people who would have been pipped at the post for selection by a Westminster Village favoured son if there had been one. But that lot decided that they were too big for Opposition. They have missed their chance.

    The EU is one of many issues on which bringing in the people who are there instead really does make an enormous difference, yes. The reverse obtains on the Conservative benches.

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